post-doomsday computing

Richard Ballard wrote:
>
<snip>
>
> >Personally, I'm off-grid with 1.6 kilowatts of solar panels and
> >1100 amp hours of batteries at 450 meters above sea level, about
> >50km from the coast. I *should* survive food-wise, but I probably
> >wouldn't be able to fire up the home computer very often.
>
> Your solar panels are equivalent to a private swimming pool
> in a blighted urban area -- an attractive nuisance. Whether or
> not your solar panels survive the Apocolyptic event, other
> survivors will want to steal your facility from you. Loss of your
> facility also means loss of your ability to grow food.
>
Well, most of my neighbours are on solar, too - and they're on larger
plots of land then me - I'm going to have a harder job than they are,
growing enough food. As we get on with each other pretty well, I'm
assuming that we would share resources and pool protection from
"foreigners". Why would my loss of electric power affect my ability to
*grow* food? I wouldn't be able to freeze it, or look at it after dark,
but what else is there? Did you mean that I would be turfed out of house
and home by a large, stronger force?

> Should an Apocolypse occur, IMO you will be too busy protecting
> your facility and your other family members to worry about
> computers.

Early on, yes, I'd agree. Assuming I + family + neighbours make it
through the first year, we can probably start thinking beyond immediate
survival. I should have mentioned I'm in a temperate (almost
sub-tropical) climate, on volcanic soil, and food isn't difficult to
grow around here.

>
> Skeptical? In the bad old days of the 1950's fallout shelter
> fad, homeowners were instructed to maintain a good larder inside
> their fallout shelter, and to have a strong lockable (from the
> inside) door on their fallout shelter. Candles.
>
> My opinions.
>
> Richard Ballard MSEE CNA4 KD0AZ
> --
> Consultant specializing in computer networks, imaging & security
> Listed as rjballard in "Friends & Favorites" at www.amazon.com
> Last book review: "Cults In Our Midst: ..."
> by Margaret Thaler Singer

--


Bernie Dwyer
Dump the z to reply to me
*****************************
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In article <3F0101C5.5DA7A943.DeleteThis@caloundra.qld.gov.au>,
Bernie Dwyer <berniez.DeleteThis@caloundra.qld.gov.au> writes:

[RB comment: Bernie Dwyer wrote:]
>>>Personally, I'm off-grid with 1.6 kilowatts of solar panels and
>>>1100 amp hours of batteries at 450 meters above sea level, about
>>>50km from the coast. I *should* survive food-wise, but I probably
>>>wouldn't be able to fire up the home computer very often.
>>
[RB comment: Richard Ballard wrote:]
>>Your solar panels are equivalent to a private swimming pool
>>in a blighted urban area -- an attractive nuisance. Whether or
>>not your solar panels survive the Apocolyptic event, other
>>survivors will want to steal your facility from you. Loss of your
>>facility also means loss of your ability to grow food.
>>
>Well, most of my neighbours are on solar, too - and they're on larger
>plots of land then me - I'm going to have a harder job than they are,
>growing enough food. As we get on with each other pretty well, I'm
>assuming that we would share resources and pool protection from
>"foreigners". Why would my loss of electric power affect my ability to
>*grow* food? I wouldn't be able to freeze it, or look at it after dark,
>but what else is there? Did you mean that I would be turfed out of house
>and home by a large, stronger force?
>
>>Should an Apocolypse occur, IMO you will be too busy protecting
>>your facility and your other family members to worry about
>>computers.
>
>Early on, yes, I'd agree. Assuming I + family + neighbours make it
>through the first year, we can probably start thinking beyond immediate
>survival. I should have mentioned I'm in a temperate (almost
>sub-tropical) climate, on volcanic soil, and food isn't difficult to
>grow around here.

In a post-Apocolytic era you sound like an island of affluence
amidst the squallor. Your neighbors and you might encounter
roving bands of survivors looking to take a homestead(s).
Electric lights are a beacon in a candle-powered society.
And as your neighbors' solar panels begin to fail ...

An out-of-print but interesting novel: "Valhalla" by Newton
Thornburg (ISBN 0-316-84393-. I hope that your neighbors
and you have a strong basis for long-term cooperation --
civility degrades as non-replacable resources are expended and
infrastructure begins to fail. (IMO the able repairman is the
First Citizen in post-Apocolyptic society.)

IMO many people will not function in post-Apocolyptic society's
frugality -- no automobiles; no parties; no tobacco; no liquor,
wine or beer. With the exception of a corner retained for future
replanting, vineyards are replanted as vegetable gardens and
grain is eaten, not malted. *Everybody* is hungry and everybody
works in the fields -- very few infants and no schooling.

>>Skeptical? In the bad old days of the 1950's fallout shelter
>>fad, homeowners were instructed to maintain a good larder inside
>>their fallout shelter, and to have a strong lockable (from the
>>inside) door on their fallout shelter. Candles.

My opinions.

Richard Ballard MSEE CNA4 KD0AZ
--
Consultant specializing in computer networks, imaging & security
Listed as rjballard in "Friends & Favorites" at www.amazon.com
Last book review: "Cults In Our Midst: ..."
by Margaret Thaler Singer
 >> Stay informed about: post-doomsday computing 

Rupert Pigott wrote:
>
<snip my question>
>
> Hmmm. I think that the requirements need to be assessed properly
> first. What the hell do you want a computer for ?
>
> The first application that comes to mind is archival.

It occurred to me that recording my production (crops, animals) and
consumption details in a database or spreadsheet would provide much
useful information in the future, e.g. comparison of yields/hectare for
different crops, etc, although that can be done on paper, of course.

> The second is entertainment - music is kinda nice if you're having
> a rough time for example.

That wasn't one my objectives, but it would be "nice to have".
>
<snip>
>
> Cheers,
> Rupert
--


Bernie Dwyer
Dump the z to reply to me
*****************************
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In article <1056965429.994786.DeleteThis@saucer.planet.gong>,
Rupert Pigott <roo.DeleteThis@dark-try-removing-this-boong.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>"Bernie Dwyer" <berniez.DeleteThis@caloundra.qld.gov.au> wrote in message
>news:3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au...
>[SNIP]
>
>for many years. The FLASH memories are usually rated at 10
>years, after which they start losing bits, most common CD-R
>media is rated at 3 years tops. The hard drives ... Hmmm, well

Damn. What sort of truly archival storage is there? Magnetic
tape has its problems as well. Someone needs to work on this,
darn it. Perhaps some sort of microfilm-based digital optical
storage might work? Microfilm is good for a long time, I thought.

--
pciszek at TheWorld dot com | "Mundus Vult Decipi"
| ("The world wants to be deceived")
| --James Branch Cabell
 >> Stay informed about: post-doomsday computing 

"Paul Ciszek" <pciszek RemoveThis @TheWorld.com> wrote:
> Damn. What sort of truly archival storage is there? Magnetic
> tape has its problems as well. Someone needs to work on this,
> darn it. Perhaps some sort of microfilm-based digital optical
> storage might work? Microfilm is good for a long time, I thought.

Nothing is truly 100% archival in perpetuity. The best
you can get is an active system which continuously
repairs data errors (before they grow beyond the bounds
of the error detection / correction system to handle
them).
 >> Stay informed about: post-doomsday computing 

Christopher M. Jones <spicedham.DeleteThis@dualboot.net> wrote:

> "Paul Ciszek" <pciszek.DeleteThis@TheWorld.com> wrote:
> > Damn. What sort of truly archival storage is there? Magnetic
> > tape has its problems as well. Someone needs to work on this,
> > darn it. Perhaps some sort of microfilm-based digital optical
> > storage might work? Microfilm is good for a long time, I thought.
>
> Nothing is truly 100% archival in perpetuity. The best
> you can get is an active system which continuously
> repairs data errors (before they grow beyond the bounds
> of the error detection / correction system to handle
> them).

Baked clay tablets, and chilsed granite seem to work quite well.
--
Walter It is difficult to get a man to understand something," wrote
Upton Sinclair, "when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."
Walter
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"Rupert Pigott" <roo.RemoveThis@dark-try-removing-this-boong.demon.co.uk> wrote:

[snip]

>To be honest if I had a small amount of data that I really
>wanted kept in electronic format I'd use mouse-proof paper-tape.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Paper tape is electronic? <G>

>Um, and keep the cats away from it too just in case they decide
>to play with it.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation:
I have preferences.
You have biases.
He/She has prejudices.
 >> Stay informed about: post-doomsday computing 

"Christopher M. Jones" <spicedham.DeleteThis@dualboot.net> wrote in message
news:bdsn1m$10g7ua$1@ID-137880.news.dfncis.de...
> "Paul Ciszek" <pciszek.DeleteThis@TheWorld.com> wrote:
> > Damn. What sort of truly archival storage is there? Magnetic
> > tape has its problems as well. Someone needs to work on this,
> > darn it. Perhaps some sort of microfilm-based digital optical
> > storage might work? Microfilm is good for a long time, I thought.
>
> Nothing is truly 100% archival in perpetuity. The best
> you can get is an active system which continuously
> repairs data errors (before they grow beyond the bounds
> of the error detection / correction system to handle
> them).
>
>

My field of work is in Record Management systems.

Even microfilm can degrade. The earlier silver nitrate based ones not only
degrade, but could do so explosively!

Microfilm standards now dictate three copies. One is the working copy to be
used as required. The second copy gets used to make new working copies. The
third one is locked in the aircon vault, sealed and only to be ever used if
all other copies are destroyed.

On another note, we have now reached an era where the records of the time
(ie electronic) cant be read by future generations without knowledge of the
current technology. Even microfilm can be read (if it survives) without
knowledge of the way it was made. Adobe files on a CD or hard disk would
take a lot more effort to read, even assuming the hard disk worked or the
CD hadn't degraded.

Andrew
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In article <FzlMa.902$oN.35447@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>,
"Combat Wombat \(was Andrew\)"
<haggis_1965.RemoveThis@yahoo.despam.com.au> writes:

>On another note, we have now reached an era where the records of
>the time (ie electronic) cant be read by future generations
>without knowledge of the current technology. Even microfilm can
>be read (if it survives) without knowledge of the way it was made.
>Adobe files on a CD or hard disk would take a lot more effort to
>read, even assuming the hard disk worked or the CD hadn't degraded.

Putting this all in perspective (and LN's novel 'A Mote In God's Eye'
aside) ...

In a true terrestrial post-Apocolyptic era I wonder how many survivors
would care enough about digital data to feed a Computer Scienctist
while s/he attempted to reconstruct a lost data format.

I got no problems
The door is open for exits
05:05:05
05:23:23
101810181018101810181018

Richard Ballard MSEE CNA4 KD0AZ
--
Consultant specializing in computer networks, imaging & security
Listed as rjballard in "Friends & Favorites" at www.amazon.com
Last book review: "Cults In Our Midst: ..."
by Margaret Thaler Singer
 >> Stay informed about: post-doomsday computing 

In article <1057065091.313345.DeleteThis@saucer.planet.gong>,
"Rupert Pigott" <roo.DeleteThis@dark-try-removing-this-boong.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>"Wolfgang Schwanke" <REMOVE.usenet20030501.DeleteThis@wschwanke.de> wrote in message
>news:rtprdb.6m.ln@wschwanke.de...
>> "Rupert Pigott" <roo.DeleteThis@dark-try-removing-this-boong.demon.co.uk> wrote in
>> news:1057054024.62954@saucer.planet.gong:
>>
>> > "Jeffery S. Jones" <jeffsj.DeleteThis@execpc.com> wrote in message
>> > news:v1c1gvon0cg4tseiuq1uugh2d4kaggrjdq@4ax.com...
>> >> CDROMs are fairly easy to copy and store, with archival storage
>> >> times of decades. Not tested in practice yet, but in theory, there
>> >> is no reason to worry about losing the data.
<snip CD lifetime>

>I do wonder if anyone has produced CDs (in small runs) with more
>exotic materials, such as glass instead of plastic.
>
>To be honest if I had a small amount of data that I really
>wanted kept in electronic format I'd use mouse-proof paper-tape.

Be careful. My mice ate my fiche (if you're talking about mylar).

>Um, and keep the cats away from it too just in case they decide
>to play with it.

And those ants that like to live in computers.
Or is that a folklore?

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.
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In article <crftdb.nm2.ln.TakeThisOut@wschwanke.de>,
Wolfgang Schwanke <REMOVE.usenet20030501.TakeThisOut@wschwanke.de> wrote:
>"Rupert Pigott" <roo.TakeThisOut@dark-try-removing-this-boong.demon.co.uk> wrote in
>news:1057065091.313345@saucer.planet.gong:

>I don't know that, but some people have come up with vinyl records made of
>some recycled organic material. I think something based on wood?). And of
>course the novelty records made of chocolate.

If it's organic, it isn't long-lived. Something will eat it.

<snip>

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.
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In article <1fxfeig.1wwco7k1uyoa45N%proto@panix.com>,
proto DeleteThis @panix.com (Walter Bushell) wrote:
>Christopher M. Jones <spicedham DeleteThis @dualboot.net> wrote:
>
>> "Paul Ciszek" <pciszek DeleteThis @TheWorld.com> wrote:
>> > Damn. What sort of truly archival storage is there? Magnetic
>> > tape has its problems as well. Someone needs to work on this,
>> > darn it. Perhaps some sort of microfilm-based digital optical
>> > storage might work? Microfilm is good for a long time, I thought.
>>
>> Nothing is truly 100% archival in perpetuity. The best
>> you can get is an active system which continuously
>> repairs data errors (before they grow beyond the bounds
>> of the error detection / correction system to handle
>> them).
>
>Baked clay tablets, and chilsed granite seem to work quite well.

That only works for certain classes of information. I just finished
reading a book on ancient technology and archaeologists have a
difficult time trying to figure out how some stuff was made because
the only record they had was a picture on a vase so the dimensional
relationships of the parts are skewed convexly.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.
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"Walter Bushell" <proto.DeleteThis@panix.com> wrote:
> Baked clay tablets, and chilsed granite seem to work quite well.

Actually not. We see and take note of the clay tablets and chisled
granite pieces which have managed to survive thousands of years. We
don't see at all those which have been destroyed, and we don't take
much note of those which have been damaged beyond all usefulness
(precisely because they lack the information content which makes
such objects so interesting). I note in particular that the famed
Rosetta stone, which is of comparatively recent vintage next to the
oldest of the old civilizations on Earth, is partially damaged.

Of course, that points out the fact that the stone was just laying
on/in the ground for several hundred years. And that in turn points
out the fact that some sort of continual data stewardship will be
necessary. Either through preventing damage to data, or through
continual correction of the data, or both.
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