question on the rings ...

On Fri, 28 Jan 2011 22:53:40 -0500, Chris Hoelscher wrote:
>
> from what i understand - there was no difference between the 7 and the 9 -
> they were not made as such, but as the 16 - Sauron just passed out 7 to
> Dwarves and 9 to Men. As he recovered some (at least 1) of the 7, is there
> any ecidence in Tolkien's writings that any of those 7 were re-distributed
> to Men in the attempt of making more Wraiths? seems to me they were potent
> as hus agents.My thoughts first turn to "the Mouth of Sauron" - could he
> have been a "wraith-in-training" ?? if not him. who else? did Sauron give
> Saruman a Dwarf-ring? (we are told he had a ring on his finger)?

Hi, Chris. Opinions vary on whether the Seven and the Nine were
different: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#Q79-Differ

As far as I'm aware, we don't know what happened to those of the
Seven that Sauron recovered (as opposed to those consumed in dragon
fire). His ambassador *offered* them to Dain, but that doesn't mean
that Sauron actually had them to give. On the other hand, if Sauron
had had more Ring-wraiths than the Nine I think they'd have shown up
in the story.

Saruman's Ring did not come from Sauron, as far as we know. Saruman
called himself Ring-Maker when boasting to Gandalf, remember. My own
view is that Saruman's Ring was just jewelry, like his robes of many
colors. There's more at
http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#Q0-SarumansRing

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://mysite.verizon.net/aznirb/mtr/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
 >> Stay informed about: question on the rings ... 

"Chris Hoelscher" skrev i meddelelsen


> from what i understand - there was no difference between the 7 and the 9 -
> they were not made as such, but as the 16 - Sauron just passed out 7 to
> Dwarves and 9 to Men. As he recovered some (at least 1) of the 7, is there
> any ecidence in Tolkien's writings that any of those 7 were re-distributed
> to Men in the attempt of making more Wraiths? seems to me they were potent
> as hus agents.My thoughts first turn to "the Mouth of Sauron" - could he
> have been a "wraith-in-training" ?? if not him. who else? did Sauron give
> Saruman a Dwarf-ring? (we are told he had a ring on his finger)?

As others have said, Saruman made his own ring, possibly in imitation of
Sauron's craft as Isengard was an imitation, a slave's flattery, of Mordor.
As for Sauron giving out recovered dwarf-rings, there was a hitch. When he
gave the Nine, he had the One, and with this was able to dominate the men he
duped. When he lost the One, his dominance of the Nazgûl had become secure,
and he could use this dominance to force them to give back their rings.
Even when they were not in possession of their rings, they were still
Nazgûl, with their full powers - but Sauron could dominate them from a
distance because he held the rings that had enslaved them. But without the
One, he could not just give out other rings of power to other servants and
dominate them like he had when the Nine slid into his grasp.

Hræfn.
 >> Stay informed about: question on the rings ... 

whatever happened to old Maglor?? the end of QA he is said to "wandered ever
along the shores, singing in pain and regret by the waves" ...

was he even mentioned in any form furing a later period in Middle Earth? (or
was this added to QS after LOTR was published, and could not be
retrofitted) - seems that a son of Feanor would be a known presence into
later ages.......

chris hoelscher
 >> Stay informed about: question on the rings ... 

On Jan 29, 8:51 am, Stan Brown wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Jan 2011 22:53:40 -0500, Chris Hoelscher wrote:
>
> > from what i understand - there was no difference between the 7 and the 9 -
> > they were not made as such, but as the 16 - Sauron just passed out 7 to
> > Dwarves and 9 to Men. As he recovered some (at least 1) of the 7, is there
> > any ecidence in Tolkien's writings that any of those 7 were re-distributed
> > to Men in the attempt of making more Wraiths? seems to me they were potent
> > as hus agents.My thoughts first turn to "the Mouth of Sauron" - could he
> > have been a "wraith-in-training" ?? if not him. who else? did Sauron give
> > Saruman a Dwarf-ring? (we are told he had a ring on his finger)?
>
> Hi, Chris.  Opinions vary on whether the Seven and the Nine were
> different:http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#Q79-Differ
>
> As far as I'm aware, we don't know what happened to those of the
> Seven that Sauron recovered (as opposed to those consumed in dragon
> fire).  His ambassador *offered* them to Dain, but that doesn't mean
> that Sauron actually had them to give.

I'm going to do a Bad Thing here, and misquote from memory. Did not
his ambassador say something like "...Rings such as he gave of old."?
I've often wondered if, in fact, he was trying to make new rings, but
I don't think there's any evidence one way or the other.

> On the other hand, if Sauron had had more Ring-wraiths than the Nine I think they'd have shown up
> in the story.

The thing that makes the Nine special is not that they are wraiths,
but that they're powerful sorcerors/necromancers in their own right -
the "wraithness" is just a by-product of their enslavement through the
rings. Who among Men could, at the end of the Third Age, be worth the
enslavement? I suspect Aragorn was the closest to being worth the
effort, and that would have been more for the symbolic distruction of
Elendil's line than for his inherent power.
 >> Stay informed about: question on the rings ... 

On Jan 29, 9:16 am, "Chris Hoelscher"
wrote:
> whatever happened to old Maglor?? the end of QA he is said to "wandered ever
> along the shores, singing in pain and regret by the waves" ...
>
> was he even mentioned in any form furing a later period in Middle Earth? (or
> was this added to QS after LOTR was published, and could not be
> retrofitted) - seems that a son of Feanor would be a known presence into
> later ages.......

when we did a group parody of LOTR some years ago, one of the chapters
was on this very topic. (they added 3 extra chapters ... long story.)
 >> Stay informed about: question on the rings ... 

derek wrote in

com:

> On Jan 29, 8:51 am, Stan Brown
> wrote:
>> As far as I'm aware, we don't know what happened to those of
>> the Seven that Sauron recovered (as opposed to those consumed
>> in dragon fire).  His ambassador *offered* them to Dain, but
>> that doesn't mean that Sauron actually had them to give.
>
> I'm going to do a Bad Thing here, and misquote from memory. Did
> not his ambassador say something like "...Rings such as he gave
> of old."? I've often wondered if, in fact, he was trying to make
> new rings, but I don't think there's any evidence one way or the
> other.
>

The exact quote is "three rings that the dwarfsires possessed of old
shall be returned to you" (the other four of the Seven had been
consumed by dragonfire).
 >> Stay informed about: question on the rings ... 

On Jan 29, 8:34 pm, Stan Brown wrote:
> On Sat, 29 Jan 2011 10:28:22 -0800 (PST), derek wrote:
>
> > On Jan 29, 8:51 am, Stan Brown wrote:
> > > On Fri, 28 Jan 2011 22:53:40 -0500, Chris Hoelscher wrote:
>
> > > > from what i understand - there was no difference between the 7 and the 9 -
> > > > they were not made as such, but as the 16 - Sauron just passed out 7 to
> > > > Dwarves and 9 to Men. As he recovered some (at least 1) of the 7, is there
> > > > any ecidence in Tolkien's writings that any of those 7 were re-distributed
> > > > to Men in the attempt of making more Wraiths? seems to me they were potent
> > > > as hus agents.My thoughts first turn to "the Mouth of Sauron" - could he
> > > > have been a "wraith-in-training" ?? if not him. who else? did Sauron give
> > > > Saruman a Dwarf-ring? (we are told he had a ring on his finger)?
>
> > > Hi, Chris. Opinions vary on whether the Seven and the Nine were
> > > different:http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#Q79-Differ
>
> > > As far as I'm aware, we don't know what happened to those of the
> > > Seven that Sauron recovered (as opposed to those consumed in dragon
> > > fire). His ambassador *offered* them to Dain, but that doesn't mean
> > > that Sauron actually had them to give.
>
> > I'm going to do a Bad Thing here, and misquote from memory.  Did not
> > his ambassador say something like "...Rings such as he gave of old."?
>
> Yes, he did.  But a couple of paragraphs later he says, "Find it, and
> three rings that the Dwarf sires possessed of old shall be returned
> to you."

yeah, I knew it was a bad idea to quote from memory

> > > On the other hand, if Sauron had had more Ring-wraiths than the
> > > Nine I think they'd have shown up in the story.
>
> > The thing that makes the Nine special is not that they are wraiths,
> > but that they're powerful sorcerors/necromancers in their own right -
> > the "wraithness" is just a by-product of their enslavement through the
> > rings.
>
> Hmm.  I'm not certain, but I thought *some* of them were sorcerers
> but others were not.  In "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age":
>
> "Men proved easier to ensnare. Those who used the Nine Rings became
> mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old."

Right. I didn't really mean that they were necessarily sorcerers, but
they were _powerful_. otoh, this certainly says that they became
_more_ powerful after they were ensnared - which makes perfect sense.
Anybody with a reasonable ability to concentrate should go far with a
few thousand years to practice.

> > Who among Men could, at the end of the Third Age, be worth the
> > enslavement?  I suspect Aragorn was the closest to being worth the
> > effort, and that would have been more for the symbolic distruction of
> > Elendil's line than for his inherent power.
>
> Denethor would have made a really good Nazg l.

Well, according to Peter Jackson, his ending was very much like that
of the Nazgul
 >> Stay informed about: question on the rings ... 

On Sat, 29 Jan 2011 10:28:22 -0800 (PST), derek wrote:
>
> On Jan 29, 8:51 am, Stan Brown wrote:
> > On Fri, 28 Jan 2011 22:53:40 -0500, Chris Hoelscher wrote:
> >
> > > from what i understand - there was no difference between the 7 and the 9 -
> > > they were not made as such, but as the 16 - Sauron just passed out 7 to
> > > Dwarves and 9 to Men. As he recovered some (at least 1) of the 7, is there
> > > any ecidence in Tolkien's writings that any of those 7 were re-distributed
> > > to Men in the attempt of making more Wraiths? seems to me they were potent
> > > as hus agents.My thoughts first turn to "the Mouth of Sauron" - could he
> > > have been a "wraith-in-training" ?? if not him. who else? did Sauron give
> > > Saruman a Dwarf-ring? (we are told he had a ring on his finger)?
> >
> > Hi, Chris.  Opinions vary on whether the Seven and the Nine were
> > different:http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#Q79-Differ
> >
> > As far as I'm aware, we don't know what happened to those of the
> > Seven that Sauron recovered (as opposed to those consumed in dragon
> > fire).  His ambassador *offered* them to Dain, but that doesn't mean
> > that Sauron actually had them to give.
>
> I'm going to do a Bad Thing here, and misquote from memory. Did not
> his ambassador say something like "...Rings such as he gave of old."?

Yes, he did. But a couple of paragraphs later he says, "Find it, and
three rings that the Dwarf sires possessed of old shall be returned
to you."

> > On the other hand, if Sauron had had more Ring-wraiths than the
> > Nine I think they'd have shown up in the story.
>
> The thing that makes the Nine special is not that they are wraiths,
> but that they're powerful sorcerors/necromancers in their own right -
> the "wraithness" is just a by-product of their enslavement through the
> rings.

Hmm. I'm not certain, but I thought *some* of them were sorcerers
but others were not. In "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age":

"Men proved easier to ensnare. Those who used the Nine Rings became
mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old."

Of course the wraithness was just an effect of the Rings. But it
seemed to assist in making them terrible. From the same paragraph:

"The Nazgûl were they, the Ringwraiths, the Enemy's most terrible
servants; darkness went with them, and they cried with the voices of
death."

> Who among Men could, at the end of the Third Age, be worth the
> enslavement? I suspect Aragorn was the closest to being worth the
> effort, and that would have been more for the symbolic distruction of
> Elendil's line than for his inherent power.

Denethor would have made a really good Nazgûl.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://mysite.verizon.net/aznirb/mtr/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
 >> Stay informed about: question on the rings ... 

On Sat, 29 Jan 2011 09:16:57 -0500, Chris Hoelscher wrote:
>
> whatever happened to old Maglor?? the end of QA he is said to "wandered ever
> along the shores, singing in pain and regret by the waves" ...
>
> was he even mentioned in any form furing a later period in Middle
> Earth?

I've wondered about this too. I assume he was drowned when Beleriand
slipped beneath the waves.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://mysite.verizon.net/aznirb/mtr/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
 >> Stay informed about: question on the rings ... 

"Stan Brown" wrote in message

> On Sat, 29 Jan 2011 09:16:57 -0500, Chris Hoelscher wrote:
>
> I've wondered about this too. I assume he was drowned when Beleriand
> slipped beneath the waves.
>
not to open another can of worms, but the theft of the two remaining
Silmarils by M & M occurred AFTER the breaking of Thangorodrim - when the
slaves if angband came out - they looked upon a world changed - so didnt
Maglor's disposal of the Silm occur AFTER Beleriand had been sunk??????

however - if "the fury of the advisaries" was so great that that the
northern portion of the western world was rent asunfer - how could there
have been any angband left to bring slaves out from???

I seem to remember a debate here years ago as to when Beleriand actually
sank?? i guess i will add my own questions - did it sink as a physical
consequence to the trauma (i.e the beatdown) of the land - or was it a
secondary-world "puinishment" or "cleansing" of the areas of evil? if it
happened AFTER the battle had ended - it doesnt seem it would have been a
ohysical consequence). Did it happen in a short period of time (24hrs) or a
longer (years) amount of time? why was the area due west of the Blue
Mountains not sunk as well (was it higher than the land due west - or was it
"saved" due to the southern portion being the final resting place of Beren
and Luthien ???


Did Tolkien ever adress and of this?? (someone needs to buy me the "letters"
so i can research this myself, but until then .....)

chris

I refuse to repeat gossip ... so listen carefully the first time
 >> Stay informed about: question on the rings ... 

On Sat, 29 Jan 2011 21:19:37 -0500, Chris Hoelscher wrote:
> not to open another can of worms, but the theft of the two remaining
> Silmarils by M & M occurred AFTER the breaking of Thangorodrim - when the
> slaves if angband came out - they looked upon a world changed - so didnt
> Maglor's disposal of the Silm occur AFTER Beleriand had been sunk??????

There was a second sinking at the fall of Númenor.

By then, Maglor would probably have been grateful for the relief.


Joking aside, perhaps after a few years of pain he lay down and died,
to be healed and renewed in Mandos.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://mysite.verizon.net/aznirb/mtr/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
 >> Stay informed about: question on the rings ... 

On Jan 29, 1:28 pm, derek wrote:
> On Jan 29, 8:51 am, Stan Brown wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Fri, 28 Jan 2011 22:53:40 -0500, Chris Hoelscher wrote:
>
> > > from what i understand - there was no difference between the 7 and the 9 -
> > > they were not made as such, but as the 16 - Sauron just passed out 7 to
> > > Dwarves and 9 to Men. As he recovered some (at least 1) of the 7, is there
> > > any ecidence in Tolkien's writings that any of those 7 were re-distributed
> > > to Men in the attempt of making more Wraiths? seems to me they were potent
> > > as hus agents.My thoughts first turn to "the Mouth of Sauron" - could he
> > > have been a "wraith-in-training" ?? if not him. who else? did Sauron give
> > > Saruman a Dwarf-ring? (we are told he had a ring on his finger)?
>
> > Hi, Chris.  Opinions vary on whether the Seven and the Nine were
> > different:http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#Q79-Differ
>
> > As far as I'm aware, we don't know what happened to those of the
> > Seven that Sauron recovered (as opposed to those consumed in dragon
> > fire).  His ambassador *offered* them to Dain, but that doesn't mean
> > that Sauron actually had them to give.
>
> I'm going to do a Bad Thing here, and misquote from memory.  Did not
> his ambassador say something like "...Rings such as he gave of old."?
> I've often wondered if, in fact, he was trying to make new rings, but
> I don't think there's any evidence one way or the other.
>
> > On the other hand, if Sauron had had more Ring-wraiths than the Nine I think they'd have shown up
> > in the story.
>
> The thing that makes the Nine special is not that they are wraiths,
> but that they're powerful sorcerors/necromancers in their own right -
> the "wraithness" is just a by-product of their enslavement through the
> rings.  Who among Men could, at the end of the Third Age, be worth the
> enslavement?  

Mouth of Sauron; he was old enough (IIRC) to have been starting to be
"stretched." Living kings in the East and South.

> I suspect Aragorn was the closest to being worth the
> effort, and that would have been more for the symbolic distruction of
> Elendil's line than for his inherent power.
 >> Stay informed about: question on the rings ... 

Eric Root wrote in

com:

> On Jan 29, 1:28 pm, derek wrote:

>>
>> The thing that makes the Nine special is not that they are
>> wraiths, but that they're powerful sorcerors/necromancers in
>> their own right - the "wraithness" is just a by-product of
>> their enslavement through the rings.  Who among Men could, at
>> the end of the Third Age, be worth the enslavement?  
>
> Mouth of Sauron; he was old enough (IIRC) to have been starting
> to be "stretched." Living kings in the East and South.

The question of roughly how old the Mouth of Sauron was is another
much-debated issue. However, under the interpretation that he joined
Sauron's service around TA 2951 (when Sauron began rebuilding Barad-
Dur) he might not have been any older than Aragorn.

(Recall that the Ring is destroyed in March 3019.)
 >> Stay informed about: question on the rings ...